Snort,

It's not clear to me why Tristan's post got you so riled up. So maybe his comment about an orthopeadic surgeon was too close to the bone (bad T, bad!), but I don't think many outsiders would have read his post as implying that you are elitist.

I think Tristan's points are valid. None of the forms of climbing are going away, and working together with the different groups is far more likely to result in a long term solution than shouting "I'm going to chop you bolts." as loudly as you can. For the record, I spend most of my time sport climbing but I fully support the idea of large areas of dedicated trad areas where bolts are absolutely not permitted, but this has to be reached by consensus, not by shouting.

You surely can't be equating the cost of traveling now to traveling a decade or two ago? Just the change in exchange rates over the years has made even dirt-bagging an expensive proposition. Combine that with the need for visa's to most countries, which are expensive AND require you to provide proof of sufficient funds, and the majority of climbers (and almost all young climbers) simply do not have the means explore the cracks of Yosemite or the limestone of Spain. So, sponsorship is indeed necessary if our strong and upcoming climbers are going to reach their potential.

I believe that money spent on a motivated climber most certainly will help them to improve their climbing, as they get to climb in different areas and work on their weaknesses. How better to improve your open handed climbing than spend a road trip working your way through Spanish tufa's? Look at how Arjan is climbing after coming back from Spain last year, and I bet Simon & Clinton would also tell you that their climbing is better for a couple of weeks in a new environment.

I'd say that Tristan's involvement in climbing, sponsorship and hosting the Germans is well known by many, many people on this forum. Of course he has a financial interest, he runs a business, but in doing so he's also out there mentoring youngsters, sponsoring talented climbers and actively putting forward new ideas of how to find some solutions to the problems we need to tackle jointly as climbers.

So, instead of shooting him down, how about thinking about how we define the ground rules in a way that the majority of climbers will buy into? Or offering to run that initiative alongside the MCSA, as it'd allow you direct input into something that is obviously important to you? Or propose an alternative, inclusive way of tackling the problem.

Ian

OK OK its DEAD! You can stop flogging the poor dumb animal now!
Snort please stop ranting on about ppl placing bolts at YW when you yourself have placed bolts there, its hypocrtical. If you dont like what the Bavarians did then just go chop their bolts and tell them where to stick their drill, simple, end of story.
And if you dont leave this poor corpse of a horse alone Im gonna report you to the SPCA or Necrophyliacs anonymous or someone..

*Chuckle*

point proven...

Man the last thing I thought was that my post was confrontational or airing dirty laundry - IN FACT, if I'm not mistaken I point out that I AGREE with SNORTS ethical standards (written / preached about here and there).

I am merely interested in what others would see as compromises - if YW is out, where is IN? And a poll would be interesting more than anything else. But considering the 'friendly-fire' attack I'm not surprised that snorts written salvo's are answered with a drill rather than a keyboard

As we speak snort is in YW so I have, say, 8 or 9 hours till I get flamed

The reality of trad ethics is that it will only be retained for as long as there are active trad climbers around. All these threats and talk of chopping is quite ineffective. Rather, trad climbers should end this continual pissing contest and instead focus on promoting trad climbing for what it is.

Aaaaannnd hence my article on all the cool spots you can go tradding and all the cool routes you can do.

Some interesting quotes from the latest Alpinist, in an article called “The Once and Future Messner”
“The popular notion of separate vertical genres is a relatively recent one. The pioneers considered all forms of ascent just climbing.”
“Whether it is an 8 foot boulder problem or an 8000-foot alpine face, the diversity of climbing keeps me excited” (Josh Wharton)
“The Messner of the future will be a boulderer, gym rat, soloist, hangdogger and wall junkie. He will be, in a word, exactly what he always was: a climber.”

(As an aside, the same magazine has an article on Mt Robson in the Canadian Rockies. Our very own Dave Cheesemond and Tony Dick opened a new route up the massive Emperor Face on this peak, on-site, over two days in 1981. It makes for very exciting reading)

Right On Magnus!!!

All this threatening talk really demotivates me... I know, I shouldn't look here for motivation(must find it inside myself, I suppose), but it would have been nice if ALL climbers where psyced and positive about climbing... and not about who did what, end how big my swinging ... drill is compared to yours etc etc...

Back to topic: sport climbing isn't dead! I can remember every challenging climb 7a and up, and almost every hold on it. If I revisit an area, usually by just looking I can remember the holds on the routes. The reason: I'm absolutely in love with climbing, any style. I love it! Sport climbing is alive in me, and I'll do it till I die i HOPE!


J

@ Magnus
Just a brief point though. You say:


Now it is pretty simple, really, if there were not a host of bolts appearing at trad crags, the "traddies" would have no reason to be pissed off, and quietly go about their business as they have done AND STILL DO.

But until such time as there is 'consensus' on where an acceptable multi-pitch-bolt-friendly area is, bolts will appear. Some will be deliberate and others ignorant. But if we can't share each others toys (as seems to be the case) then each child should get his own toy, but the 'sporties' arent allowed one...

And here lies the problem! Traddies are not only quite, but also scarce. It is only a matter of time before these trad ethics have dwindled into a large chimney on Towerkop. If you want to conserve trad, you better get more to go climb trad. Threats alone will not suffice.

These debated were not around a few years ago. This is simply because we all climbed trad, and hence knew and understood the ethics of trad, bolting, etc. etc. Therrr times arrrr changing.

Excellent point Magnus.
You will notice that in this thread there is very little or no input from the Kingdom of sweat. Thats probably because, apart from the odd little niggle, trad and sport co-exist here very comfortably, often at the same crag. Almost all traddies I know climb sport as well (even Scott has placed the odd piece...), Dave Drummond and co organise "mentor days" for school kids (climbing mostly plastic and some sport) at a TRAD only venue (Monteseel) which subtly and perhaps unintentionally exposes them to the concept that to lead there (they top rope on the day) you are going to have to place gear, Hannelie Morris organises monthly Dry Mouth Guild meets specifically to encourage trad climbing. This forum can contribute by discussing trad issues (in fact, lately, I think there has been more trad talk than anything else?).
I don't seem to have a point except that KZN is a good place to climb at the moment...
Apologies to Marshall for rambling on and wasting his time...